I can see all five SID at KHIO if I uninstall Navigraph and go to stock MSFS. After installing ARINC 2111 Rev. 3 three of the SID are missing. I also note that the Navigraph program wants to keep installing itself.
Hi,
yes right, but that has nothing todo with SU5,6,7,8, … the stock scenery is simple outdated.
The missing SIDs are for the missing runway in the stock scenery 13L/31R also. The logic in the sim is now, when a SID can´t be assigned to a runway, it will be suppressed. That´s not what we have in our hand. The “missing” terminal procedures are all included but the sim doesn´t show it due the outdated runways. Sorry, please report this to ASOBO/MS.
Here the runways from the sim 1.21.13.0
… and here the reality:
Why the procedures are visible in the stock data are also very simple. ASOBO/MS/WT don´t add these procedures to the dataset which can´t be assigned to a runway. You see this very clear ie. via LNM:
Yellow = comes from the stock data
Green = comes from us/Navigraph
When you look now on an example like the FARM7 departure. You see a SID 13R/31L, which are included in both datasets (stock and ours). But when you look on the SID FARM7 for 13L/31R you see, that these two SIDs are only included in our dataset and therefore the stock data works and ours not.
So, there are two issues:
- The scenery is outdated due the missing runways
- The stock data are incomplete due the missing terminal procedures
Again, we can´t do anything for that - this is a 100% sim issue/limitation.
Cheers,
Richard
I understand about the missing runways at KHIO. But the SID in question is for one of the runways that are in the scenery, and worked just fine until SU7 dropped.
Here is the SID chart for SCAPO showing 13R/31L, which are included in the scenery
Here is the view from the cockpit for the departure selection for 31L.
What am I missing? I would argue that the SID SCAPO for 31L, which is in the scenery for KHIO, is not in your database. I can see that departure when I load up just the stock sim as well without Navigraph.
It was there on Wed. before the SU7 update (I sim out of KHIO all the time and never had a problem)
Dave
Right, but it´s exactly the same case as the FARM7 … and you see on the charts, that the SCAPO7 is also for the missing 13L/31R runway and also, when you look on my LNM screenshot above, you also see the SCAPO7 on the top of the list without a runway ident … that´s our entry and not the entry from the stock data.
The “logic” in the sim is:
When a terminal procedure can´t be assigned to ANY runway, the WHOLE procedure will be disabled. So in this case the SCAPO7 is valid for 13L/R and for 31L/R … but 13R and 31L are missing, and therefore the sim disable/suppress it. Call it “feature”, I don´t know … fact is the scenery is outdated and due the sim logic you can´t use any terminal procedure, where a runway is missing
Sorry, I also don´t understand that “logic” but it is at it is … and we must live with that because we can do anything. We offer the data and you see in my LNM screenshot above, that the terminal procedures are included but without a runway, due the outdated scenery.
Cheers,
Richard
Sorry to bother on more time…
Rwy 13R/31L which you have pointed out are in the SIM. They are the only runways (including 2/20) that are on the SCAPO7 SID chart. This missing runway 13L/31R are NOT in the scenery or on the SID chart.
I fly this airport all the time. 13R/31L are the main runway and are in the sim. As you can see from my last response post I have set up to fly 31L, which you have pointed out is in the scenery. That runway is IN the sim. What the sim is missing is the shorter 13L/31R runway, and these have never been there since I started siming out of KHIO last year.
Up until SU7 all five SIDS were there for 13R/31L. What you are telling me is between SU6 (Wed.) and SU7 (Thursday) MSFS dropped the main runway in KHIO out of the scenery, which doesn’t make sense since you noticed I was setting up for 31L and pointed out it was IN the scenery.
If you look at the chart for SCAPO7 you will notice that the missing 13L/31R is not even listed as on the SID. However 31L for which I can load one of the two remaining SIDs does exist.
Thanks.
Dave
Dave, possible I missunderstand you here:
On the chart you see that the SCAPO7 SID will be used for all runways 02, 13L, 13R, 20, 31L and 31R…
I can’t say if ASOBO/MS has changed anything between SU6 and SU7 because also I can’t switch back, but you see very clear (as from my LNM screenshot before), that the SCAPO7 is included in our dataset but due the missing runways 13L and 31R not selectable in the sim. Nobody wrote anything about a dropped runway. I wrote, that when the sim can’t assign a runway, which will be used in a terminal procedure, the sim disable/suppress this terminal procedure completly (for all runways, existing and not existing ones). Look at my LNM screenshot, the green markers. All SIDs are included, but some SIDs haven’t runway idents due the missing runways.
You will find several postings here in the forum with equal issues for arrivals, it looks now the same for departures but again, I can’t verify the situation before.
Cheers
Richard
Okay.
One last question then I’ll let it ride, why does it show up in the stock sim without the Navigraph loaded if the sim suppresses it? They only disappear when I load Navigraph back in. I can fly the SID in the sim without Navigraph loaded.
The nice folks at Working Title suggested I check with you first.
I will wait and see what comes with future releases. I think I can manage to fly out of KHIO without the SIDs or create them on my own. That’s why I subscribe to Navigraph charts!
I don’t fly without my Navigraph installed so thank you for your support.
Have a great weekend.
Dave
The answer is simple and you see this also very clear in the LNM screenshot. ASOBO/MS filters the procedures out, which can’t assigned to a runway. I have describe this before with the FARM7 departure but here again with the SCAPO7 depature:
Yellow = comes from the stock data
Green = comes from the Navigraph data
You see now, you have always a pair of each procedure 02/13R/20/31L … but you also see a SID without any runway ident on the top (with the red marker). Thats also SCAPO7 for 13R and 13L but both are only included in the green dataset (ours) and no yellow marker as for the other one.
The SID without the runway ident means, that this SID can´t find a runway in the sim. That means, in this case with SCAPO7, ASOBO/MS or WT (I don´t know who is the responsible company now) don´t export (filter out) the SCAPO7 for 13L and the SCAPO7 for 31R. Therefore it´s working because ASOBO/MS or WT knows about this issue.
So, they offer:
- an outdated scenery
- un-complete navdata because the SCAPO7 for 13L and SCAPO7 for 31R are missing
Normally, not a big deal but what happened, when someone creates a 3rd party scenery of KHIO with all runways? You can´t use any terminal procedure for 13L/31R due the missing procedures in the stock data.
We don´t have the possibility to compare if the runway exists or not in the stock data and due the 3rd party scenery designer it makes no sense to remove procedures only because the scenery is outdated.
The real question is, why ASOBO/MS or WT suppress the WHOLE procedure, when only a runway is missing or outdated? Because as you see in the screenshot the yellow/green pairs are identically, so included in both (stock and navigraph).
Cheers,
Richard
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