Hi folks - apologies in advance because I’m sure that this has been covered elsewhere, but I’ve not been able to find it and I’m at the “my head is about to explode” stage.
If I pop onto the TBM 930 in MSFS and bring up the list of departures for NZNS I see the correct list (a good “sanity check” is to verify that the last one is a ZULU2 departure). I don’t know if this is because it’s correctly updated from Navigraph or if the sim just shipped with a relatively up-to-date database; doesn’t matter - the only important thing is that it’s showing what it should show - so the correct data exists somewhere.
Different story on X-Plane; I installed the FMS manager - it did a scan - found the installation - downloaded an approx 16MB file - decompressed that into several thousand files - and popped them into the C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\X-Plane 11\Custom Data\CIFP folder - where I can see that they all have a date of 9th November 2020. Perfect.
The problem I have is that when I crank up either the TBM 900 or C172-G1000 in X-Plane - start at NZNS - bring up departure options - I get 14 options but they’re not current ie “no ZULU2 departure”.
I’m struggling to find how to read what the G1000 in any sim thinks is the database date; the TMB 900 in X-Plane still shows it as being about 4 years old - and other G1000 MFD appear to come on instantly and don’t show the init screen - which it the only place I’ve seen database dates (I can’t find a way to get to them via the buttons).
Could someone please point me in the right direction? All I really want to achieve is have current New Zealand departures available to me in the HotStart TBM 900 under X-Plane.
Update. I’ve sent an eMail to Laminar Research (XP Developers). It’s looking very much like Navigraph is popping the updated files into the expected place - which non-G1000 aircraft can see - but the G1000 equipped ones appear to be getting their data from somewhere else - so not really sure what’s going on.
There is a \default folder in a slightly different location for the nav data - which appears to have an identical structure - but when I popped a copy of the Navigraph-updated files there the sim just crashed on startup (and would only work when I’d restored the original files).
If anyone has any insight I’d be most grateful - if not then hopefully Laminar Research can help.
Hi,
the issue with the missing SIDs (XRAY, YANKEE and ZULU) at NZNS is, that none of them ends on a specific fix, nor are defined as a vector. When you look on the charts you see at the end of the SIDs a double arrow in two different directions.
This means, that the next sequence is not defined exactly. When you look on other SIDs you will see, all SIDs end at a specific waypoint/navaId to follow the next track/airway.
Here as an example the VICTOR SID (ends at NS VOR):
Therefore such procedures are not included in the source because it can´t be coded without any last waypoint or at least with a vector. In this case I guess, the reason why the AIP New Zealand don´t code this in any other way are the mountains surrounding the airport. Here the coding directly from the AIP New Zealand:
Thanks for that very extensive reply. To be honest, it’s raised a whole new set of questions - but (as the saying goes) I’m “now confused on a higher level about more important things”!
The co-developer of the Hot Start TBM 900 for X-Plane has confirmed that the model will report the actual date of the database it’s using on the MFD init screen - and despite other non-G1000 aircraft (eg 737-800) seeing the AIRAC cycle ending 03 Dec 2020 - the TBM is still reporting a database that’s about 4 years old; so something not right there.
The MSFS 2020 IS showing the expected departures. I would have thought that it would have suffered from the same limitations that you mention.
I’ve been through both sims along with the NZAIP and found that there’s a majority overlap, but not 100% consistency from any camp (assuming that the NZAIP is authoritive).
Hi again Colin,
we are here to make some things clearer as good as we can. So, no problem about the new questions
Following questions:
Which X-Plane version do you exactly use?
Which XP Nav Specification expect the Hot Start TBM900 (XP11.50 below or XP11.50 above?)? That´s important because it depends which dataset you should use. I guess this can only be answered by the developer.
Which is the exact path, from where the Hot Start TBM900 reads the data? /???
I guess, when we have these answers, we have the answer also
Right, and I confirm it but the SID is simple wrong … I have loaded the ZULU2 into the TBM with the default data and look on the waypoint-sequence:
You see DER02 (which is a waypoint on the end of the runway) - NS which is completely wrong. The SID doesn´t go back to NS VOR (NS is “behind” the threshold 02. Also, when you look on the leg-page, you will only see the “USR” waypoint (which will be added by the sim) with the alt restriction 700ft … no more intercept but in this case the intercept could be important because there is a 7500ft obstacle. Anyway, the procedure is wrong or better incomplete and therefore wrong. But thats due the fact, as I have written before, that this procedures have no end-waypoint nor any vectors.
When such procedures are included then they are tailored but not standard. Therefore, not included in our database because we use only standard-records which are complete and fits perfect in most of the worldwide cases.
What do you mean with “comparing both sims”? Do you mean XP11 and MSFS? Can you give me an example please, what is different against the NZ AIP?
I’m not sure. He’s just said that “it uses the same database as X-Plane”. For what it’s worth, I appear to be seeing exactly the same data in the X-Plane C172-G1000, but can’t be 100% certain as I can’t find a way to check it in the sim (they appear to turn on instantly and don’t have an init page) and as you’ve pointed out, the non-existance of those last 3 SIDs aren’t the “quick check” that I thought they were. So at this point the biggest “smoking gun” is the 4 year old date on the TBM MFD splash screen.
I’m not sure of that either; I found what appear to be sets of nav data in 2 places; one in:
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\X-Plane 11\Custom Data
And the other in:
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\X-Plane 11\Resources\default data
The dates on the files were a little older but probably reflected the date I installed the sim and not the date of the data they contain. It’s my suspicion that the G1000 aircraft (or maybe just the TBM) are using the latter whilst the likes of the B737-800 are using the former. When I tried doing a copy/paste from the former to the latter (after backing up the original contents) the sim repeatedly crashed – so I had to put it back as it was. I do have an eMail in to the X-Plane folks though - so will be interesting to see what they come back with.
I’ve posted your question to the TBM forum (awaiting a reply) - but whilst I was there, I noted a reply from another helpful chap which said:
"Just my two cents here. What Navigraph format are you using? I had your same problem at the very beginning of buying the TBM900. It was because I was using the 11.50+ data format.
Just for a try, install the old Navigraph data format for Xplane. That fixed all for me."
Is that something I could try - and if so, how would I go about that?
“Something wrong” in MSFS doesn’t come as any surprise; I’m finding dozens of things wrong (hence the reason I’m flying X-Plane …) Are you saying that real aircraft won’t be able to select those “no end-point” departures either? (I accept what you’re saying - and heaven knows you’ve probably forgotten more than I’ll even know - but I am struggling to reconcile the fact that the departurers do exist in the real world … and I would have thought that the databases that real aircraft and sims are using ultimately all comes from the same source thus if it’s a problem for sims to model accurately would it not also be a problem IRL? (I’ve got a friend who’s an A320 captain I can ask to checkout IRL if it helps).
Re: Comparison of datasets; yes. I’ve popped onto the NZAIP website and re-grabbed the latest for NZNS - popped them into Notability - and highlighted the SIDS. Here’s what I’m finding (I’ll leave MSFS version out as it doesn’t seem relevant anymore)
UPDATE: Actually - probably not worth listing that at this stage because if my G1000-equipped aircraft are reading the wrong database then it’s probably understandable that there are a few differences over the past 4 years - so probably just a waste of (a considerable) amount of time given that it’s currently 12:46am here).
I’ll update again once I hear back from the TBM developers and/or X-Plane.
I’m starting to wonder if I’m chasing ghosts here; by my way of thinking the sim must be using either the “custom data” or the “default data”.
So I opened up the NZNS file in both - and had a look at the SIDS; the “default data” seems to list a bunch of SID lines with names that don’t gel particularly well with what I’m seeing in the sim whereas the “custom data” (that I believe is accurate) lists exactly 14 unique SID identifiers - which is exactly what I’m seeing in the aircraft.
So … if that’s correct then:
(a) It looks like the sim ISN’T reporting the correct date on the init page of the MFD, and
(b) Isn’t giving me the option of the 3 SIDs I wanted for the reasons you’ve mentioned (with MSFS version being a red herring in that although they’re there, they’re invalid).
If so than I guess the only thing I need to reconcile is “how do real aircraft get on flying those SIDs”?
Exactly that is the question what navdata-format the TBM uses. There are currently two formats for XP11 … one format which supports XP11.4x and one format which supports XP11.5x … some addons uses 4x, some 5x. Therefore it is very, very important to know, which format the TBM uses now.
XP11.4x is the old one
XP11.5x is the new one
… but you can´t install both in the same directory and that could be generate an issue. Normally, the default path for the AIRAC updates are the “Custom Data” folder. But again, when the TBM uses this folder and you try to install the 11.4x data in this folder, the newest sim version (in your case 11.50r3 will not be work). Vice versa the same … when you use the 11.5x data, then the sim starts correctly but according the “2cents” answer, the TBM doesn´t work because the TBM expect the old (11.4x) format … not sure, whtat is the right answer here and how you can use both dataset (old AND new) in parallel …
Correct, when the airline use only standard-record types (normally none regional-carrier). Normally the region carrier uses tailored datasets. Like we have here in Austria with LOWI - there are some procedures included which are not included in the standard - so it depends on the airline.
You see this in the sim too. NavBlue data will be used by many airlines, Jeppesen too but you miss some data in NavBlue and these data are also not included in real airliners. So, this is not a bug or similar else in the sim, it´s simple not included in the NavBlue dataset.
What a journey; I think it was just a coincidence that the 3 SIDs I wanted to fly were the 3 that weren’t in the aircraft - and I’d assumed that that was due to an old database because the aircraft was reporting that it was 4 years old - when in reality everything was working - those SIDs were never going to be there anyway - and the aircraft doesn’t report the correct database date.
Final update: There was indeed an issue with the format of the data; another user had struck the same issue and as soon as I switched to the 11.41- format the init screen showed the current AIRAC cycle.
