Airac 2410 VTBS Bangkok problem

[pattayapete]

This AIRAC update all the runways at VTBS changed 1 degree. So 19R became 20R and so on. The old runway designations are still showing in procedures eg ILSZ 02R is available in the approaches (correct) and so is ILS Z 01 (notice no right or left designation) and it will not work if selected although there is a chart for it).

This can just be ignored if the correct ILSZ02R is selected. The problem is with 20R as the only ILS available is 19Z which will not work. There is no ILS20R although there is a RNAVZ20R.

To say it briefly all ILS approaches for 20R are missing. I am using AIRAC 2410 Rev 2.

PS Is it usual to leave the old designations (01, 19 etc) in the data?

[NAVDataOld]

Hi,
There are several postings on this topic (outdated scenery in MSFS or any third-party scenery). Here are a few ones, where I have tried to explain the main reason:

EDDB with AIRAC 2410 doesn’t work

Hi again, No, no. I have understood you correctly. When you look at my reference link, you will see that the report is equal to yours but at an airport in the US area. In AIRAC 2409, the runway idents were 07LR/25LR, but with AIRAC 2410, they were changed to 06LR/24LR. That is correct because our data reflects the real world. The main point is the scenery in the MSFS—this scenery still has the old runways (it seems the third-party scenery, too), and therefore, the MSFS can´t assign the termin…

KBWI has no SIDS or STARS

Hi, the MSFS stock scenery for KBWI is outdated - there is a missing runway 15R/33L Here the current airport diagram from the FAA: [image] The data are all included for KBWI but the logic in the MSFS disables it, when terminal procedures can´t be assigned to a runway - in this case, there are some terminal procedures for 15R/33L but the runway doesn´t exist in the MSFS scenery - and therefore no SIDs, no STARs. Here the runways from the MSFS scenery - 15R/33L is missing: [image] Please …

Also, we have added this limitation to our release notes since day one after the release of MSFS 2020. We hope that 2024 brings any improvements here because we have all this data and could change the runway idents when possible and allowed.

@pattayapete

PS Is it usual to leave the old designations (01, 19 etc) in the data?

No, this is impossible, and honestly, it makes no sense. You can´t expect real-world data, and then we offer outdated data to fit with an outdated scenery. That is not our philosophy, I´m sorry.

Cheers,
Richard

[pattayapete]

Richard, the reason I asked obout the old data is because it is still there. I fully agree it makes no sense to keep it and its confusing. Nevertheless VTBS has approaches for all the new runways (except 20R) and also has all the approaches for the old runways 01 and 19.

[NAVDataOld]

Hi again,
I am not 100% sure, what you mean by “because it is still there”." I have looked directly into the AIP, and the runways 01/19 nor 20R are no longer existing.

Here is a screenshot directly from the AIP Thailand:

You see only 01LR/19L/R but no 20R or 01/19 …

Further here on the airport diagram (also directly from the AIP):

The data reflects 100% of the real world. I may have misunderstood you at some point, but we don’t offer outdated AIRAC cycles anyway. I’m sorry.

Cheers,
Richard

[srcooke]

The runway designators changed this cycle Richard?

Jeppesen charts and PMDG data ( at least for P3D ) list 02L & 02R plus 01

AIP supplement 42/24 extract:

1 With effect from 3 October 2024 at 0000 UTC, the purpose of this AIRAC AIP Supplement is to inform all concerned regarding to amend and update information of runway 01/19, 02R/20L, 02L/20R (see Figure 1) including to revise information of Bangkok Terminal Control Area/Control Zone, ATS communication facilities, radio navigation and landing aids, and flight procedures also with new related chart to an aerodrome as necessary at Suvarnabhumi International Airport (VTBS), in accordance with the AIRAC cycle.

In the transition phase 2, from 3 October 2024 onwards, runway 02L/20R will be operated as a non-precision approach runway. Meanwhile, RNP approach will be available for arriving aircraft on runway 02L/20R.

[NAVDataOld]

@srcooke

The runway designators changed this cycle Richard?

No, and that’s exactly what I mean. We have the “old” runways in our database and in our charts. So, it´s the same as for 2409 = for the previous cycle.

That’s exactly what I don´t understand. I guess the new runways should be updated within the next cycle.

Cheers,
Richard

[pattayapete]

I am talking about the approaches presented in Navigraph Charts app. Note in the image, approaches for 01 and 19 which no longer exist. Also No ILS for runway 20R which should exist. There is a RNAV for 20R but no ILS, I do have updated scenery with the correct runways fot vtbs.

[srcooke]

@pattayapete

Also No ILS for runway 20R which should exist.

See my post above, 02L/20R is non-precision at this time.

[NAVDataOld]

@pattayapete

I am talking about the approaches presented in Navigraph Charts app. Note in the image, approaches for 01 and 19 which no longer exist. Also No ILS for runway 20R which should exist. There is a RNAV for 20R but no ILS

Ahhhhh … light at the end of the tunnel Thank you …

I assume that this is all a special case due to the runway ident change in this cycle period. Jeppesen has a RAD cut-off day of 56 days and a RAD publication day of 34 days—therefore, I guess the changes are not included in this cycle, but I expect them in the next 2411, at the latest, 2412.

Sorry, for the wrong interpretation from my side. I haven´t really understood the initial posting - sorry for that.

Cheers,
Richard

[tainomabuk]

The runways in the FMS don’t match the charts as of the new update (using toliss). There are two 20 R listed in the FMS for VTBS.

[NAVDataOld]

As I wrote before, these changes were made during the cut-off period, so they are still not included in the data/charts. I expect an update on the final/current situation with AIRAC 2411/12.

Further, ToLiss is an X-Plane addon and not an MSFS addon, and X-Plane handles the sceneries completely differently.

Thank you,
Richard

[Rodeo314]

@NAVDataOld

As I wrote before, these changes were made during the cut-off period, so they are still not included in the data/charts. I expect an update on the final/current situation with AIRAC 2411/12.

I respectuflly disagree. It seems to me like Jeppesen’s data is in fact up-to-date (or if anything, was updated early).

@pattayapete

This AIRAC update all the runways at VTBS changed 1 degree. So 19R became 20R and so on.

Except this is incorrect. The update is not due to magnetic variation but the opening of a new runway. 19R did not become 20R, but 20L. 20R is an entirely new runway.

What happened, as far as I know, is that VTBS:

• added a new, additional runway
• renamed two existing runways at the same time
• renamed said existing runways in an atypical fashion due to the positioning of the new runway

So it went from:

XXX    19R        19L
       |||        |||
       |||        |||
       |||        |||
XXX    01L        01R

to:

20R    20L        19
|||    |||        ||
|||    |||        ||
|||    |||        ||
02L    02R        01

• 02L/20R is new
• 01L/19R was renamed 02R/20L
• 01R/19L was renamed 01/19

Despite the conclusion reached by @pattayapete, if I am correct, 01/19 is not an old designator but actually the new designator for what used to be 01R/19L instead.

---

---

---

The Jeppesen ground chart (20-9) for VTBS reflects this configuration.

This already matches the Thailand AIP for the next cycle effective October 31, 2024 (see VTBS AD 2.12 RUNWAY PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS):

https://aip.caat.or.th/2024-10-31-AIRAC/html/index-en-GB.html

252713.pdf

---

---

---

Somewhat interestingly, the Thailand AIP’s data for the current cycle is behind Jeppesen for some reason and still reflects the old airport layout:

https://aip.caat.or.th/2024-10-03-AIRAC/html/index-en-GB.html

188773.pdf

Regards,

Tim

P.S. continued in next post

[NAVDataOld]

Again, I expect the correct data with the next cycle(s) 2411 or, at the latest, 2412.

Cheers,
Richard

[Rodeo314]

In addition, as far as I can tell, Navigraph data already has the new runway layout and corresponding approaches:

         |  ILS20LZ  |  ILS19Z
RNAV20R  |  RNAV20L  |  RNAV19
  20R    |    20L    |    19
         |           |
  |||    |    |||    |    ||
  |||    |    |||    |    ||
  |||    |    |||    |    ||
         |           |
  02L    |    02R    |    01
RNAV02L  |  RNAV02R  |  RNAV01
         |  ILS02RZ  |  ILS01Z

Here in Navigraph’s X-Plane native data (MSFS data would contain the same procedures, just coded differently):

APPCH:010,R,R20R, ,ANORU,VT,P,C,E  I, ,010,IF, , , , , ,      ,    ,    ,    ,    ,+,03500,     ,13000, ,   ,    ,   , , , , , ,B,J,S;

APPCH:010,R,R02L, ,ABVER,VT,P,C,E  I, ,010,IF, , , , , ,      ,    ,    ,    ,    ,+,03500,     ,13000, ,   ,    ,   , , , , , ,B,J,S;

APPCH:010,I,I20LZ, ,REVMO,VT,P,C,E  I, ,   ,IF, ,ISWN,VT,P,I,      ,0154,0130,    ,    ,J,03500,01600,13000, ,   ,    ,   , , , , , ,0,D,S;
APPCH:010,R,R20L, ,RUMAD,VT,P,C,E  I, ,010,IF, , , , , ,      ,    ,    ,    ,    ,+,03500,     ,13000, ,   ,    ,   , , , , , ,B,J,S;

APPCH:010,R,R02R, ,LOSDO,VT,P,C,E  I, ,010,IF, , , , , ,      ,    ,    ,    ,    ,+,03500,     ,13000, ,   ,    ,   , , , , , ,B,J,S;
APPCH:010,I,I02RZ, ,LOSDO,VT,P,C,E  I, ,   ,IF, ,ISWS,VT,P,I,      ,1954,0133,    ,    ,J,03500,01600,13000, ,   ,    ,   , , , , , ,0,D,S;

APPCH:010,I,I19-Z, ,LOTMU,VT,P,C,E  I, ,   ,IF, ,ISEN,VT,P,I,      ,0154,0123,    ,    ,J,02500,01600,13000, ,   ,    ,   , , , , , ,0,D,S;
APPCH:010,R,R19, ,LAVOG,VT,P,C,E  I, ,010,IF, , , , , ,      ,    ,    ,    ,    ,+,02500,     ,13000, ,   ,    ,   , , , , , ,B,J,S;

APPCH:010,R,R01, ,RUPUX,VT,P,C,E  I, ,010,IF, , , , , ,      ,    ,    ,    ,    ,+,02500,     ,13000, ,   ,    ,   , , , , , ,B,J,S;
APPCH:010,I,I01-Z, ,RUPUX,VT,P,C,E  I, ,   ,IF, ,ISES,VT,P,I,      ,1954,0128,    ,    ,J,02500,01600,13000, ,   ,    ,   , , , , , ,0,D,S;

RWY:RW01 ,+0000,      ,00004, ,ISES,2,   ;N13392411,E100450659,0000;
RWY:RW02L,+0000,      ,00008, ,    , ,   ;N13395463,E100434528,0000;
RWY:RW02R,+0000,      ,00004, ,ISWS,2,   ;N13401660,E100440479,0000;
RWY:RW19 ,+0000,      ,00004, ,ISEN,2,   ;N13413017,E100453972,0000;
RWY:RW20L,+0000,      ,00004, ,ISWN,2,   ;N13421321,E100443544,0000;
RWY:RW20R,+0000,      ,00008, ,    , ,   ;N13420068,E100441841,0000;

So the real issue is simply the outdated scenery (for all sims, since this is a very recent development) versus the up-to-date data, except it’s just much more confusing because of the scope of the configuration change, where the addition of a new runway close to an existing one causing the existing pair of parallel runways to be renamed “inconsistently” (01L/19R to 02R/20L, 01R/19L to 01/19 instead).

Regards,

Tim

P.S. continued in next post

[Rodeo314]

The nav data (using toliss A321) for VTBS does not match the navigraph charts. The charts show runway 19, but the nav data in the fms shows duplicate 20R. database for the aircraft, sim, and charts are updated.

In addition to the mismatch between the scenery and the data, there is something ToLiSS-specific where the ToLiSS plugin has some special code to detect “typical” runway renames, such as for example:

• 01L/19R to 02L/20R

• 01R/19L to 02R/20L

…in order to assign procedures to the correct runways without the user having to update the underlying scenery.

But because the configuration change at VTBS is much more extensive and rather atypical, it probably confused the plugin which could explain why you see two instances of 20R in your MCDU.

For X-Plane users, you need to report the runway configuration change over at the X-Plane gateway so Laminar can update the default scenery:

https://gateway.x-plane.com/bug_reports

In addition, once someone (Laminar or otherwise) releases an updated VTBS scenery with a current runway configuration and you install it, some third-party aircraft like the ToLiSS or the Hot Start Challenger will automatically pick up the updated runway configuration from the custom scenery.

On the other hand, X-Plane 11 default avionics (GNS430/530, G1000, default FMS) will require the default scenery to be manually updated as they ignore runways from custom scenery packs.

I do not have X-Plane 12 so I do not know whether the Laminar GNS, G1000 and FMS will parse runways from custom scenery in the newer sim or not.

Regards,

Tim

[Rodeo314]

@NAVDataOld

Again, I expect the correct data with the next cycle(s) 2411 or, at the latest, 2412.

Cheers,
Richard

And gain, I say the data is already correct as of cycle 2410, see my post above just below yours.

Regards,

Tim