FSIA - Multiple outdated approaches in Data

[TheFl4me]

Since June 2022, FSIA only has the following approaches:

RNP X 13
RNP 13
ILS Z 31
RNP Y 31
RNP 31

These exist in the FMS Data (2302), but, there also are a bunch of approaches as well that shouldn’t exist. Namely:

ILS Y 31
RNP W 13
RNP Y 13
RNP W 31
RNP X 31

(Circled in red are all approaches that don’t exist according to the AIP.

[NAVDataOld]

Hi,
thanks for the report. Please can you give us a reference from the AIP, where these approaches are really existing only that we can report it.

Thank you
Richard

[Rodeo314]

As Richard mentioned, Navigraph needs an official real-world source if they are to report the supposedly outdated approaches to Jeppesen.

But also:

@TheFl4me

Since June 2022, FSIA only has the following approaches:

[…]

These exist in the FMS Data (2302), but, there also are a bunch of approaches as well that shouldn’t exist. Namely:

ILS Y 31
RNP W 13
RNP Y 13
RNP W 31
RNP X 31

Said approaches that suppsedly should not exist are currently charted by Jeppesen and the corresponding charts have been updated in June 2022 or more recently:

ILS Y 31  |  Chart 11-2  |  Last updated 17 Jun 2022
RNP W 13  |  Chart 12-5  |  Last updated 25 Nov 2022  |  Effective 1 Dec 2022
RNP Y 13  |  Chart 12-3  |  Last updated 25 Nov 2022  |  Effective 1 Dec 2022
RNP W 31  |  Chart 12-5  |  Last updated 25 Nov 2022  |  Effective 1 Dec 2022
RNP X 31  |  Chart 12-4  |  Last updated 25 Nov 2022  |  Effective 1 Dec 2022

Jeppesen doesn’t update charts for no reason, it is much more likely that Jeppesen’s data and charts are correct and your data source is not.

Regards,

Tim

[TheFl4me]

Unfortunately, I am not allowed to share documentation from my operator online.

But, I can attest that it matches Navigraphs own AIP in your Charts app, and a controller from that area has confirmed this (verbally) as well [that there should only be those 5 named approaches]

I mean here is a screenshot from the charts app, but obviously, I assume that you guys have access to that as well:

As to the date, that’s my mistake, I was hasty (since in my mind the exact date didn’t really matter) and only looked at ILS Y 31 (hence June). But the fact remains that those extra approaches should not exst in the current AIRAC, irrelevant whether that’s since June or since November.

In general, this seems to be a widespread issue (mismatch between AIP and FMS Data) with Jeppesen and/or Navigraph. I have witnessed this with multiple airports throughout the years. Just a few weeks/months ago I reported the same issue at LPMA (which you yourself confirmed Richard) as well as SKBO. There are other instances I’ve personally experienced over the years, but I’ve only recently started reporting them.

LPMA Madeira - incorrect approaches

It would seem that there is a little rwy assignment issue with the data at LPMA. According the AIP, these are the approaches to LPMA: RNP A 05 RNP Z 05 RNP Y 05 VOR 05 RNP B 23 RNP 23 VOR 23 These exist in the FMS Data, thats good. BUT there seem to be a bunch of extra approaches that shouldn’t exist (at all or anymore): RNP B 05 (RNP B is only for rwy 23 not also 05) RNP A 23 (RNP A is only for rwy 05 not also 23) VDM A 05 VDM B 05 VDM A 23 VDM B 23 I believe the VDM approaches …

Some approaches missing at Bogota SKBO

Both RNP D 32L and 32R are missing in the FMS (and have been missing for years now). All other 32 L/R RNP approaches (C, Z, Y, and X) are there, just not D. This is problematic because D is the only non-AR and/or RF-required approach of the lot. I am using the PMDG aircraft in P3Dv5.3 and the result is the same for all of them (747, 777, 737…). The issue is not isolated to me but affects all people I know as well.

[NAVDataOld]

Hi again,
we report all, where we have a reference and/or where we find a reference. In general, the most issues comes directly from the country itself. We don’t use any airline/carrier specific data in our source. Therefore it’s important for us and also for Jeppesen, to get the references.

Unfortunately, I haven’t found any public reference to FSIA …

Cheers
Richard

[Rodeo314]

@TheFl4me

But, I can attest that it matches Navigraphs own AIP in your Charts app, and a controller from that area has confirmed this (verbally) as well [that there should only be those 5 named approaches]

I mean here is a screenshot from the charts app, but obviously, I assume that you guys have access to that as well:

Your Charts app is set to CAO mode (where only charts for which a Jeppesen airline-optimized “commercial airline overlay” version exists are presented). Presumably your operator’s charts app only presents such charts as well.

That does not mean other charts or approaches do not exist in the “standard” mode:

If you look at the corresponding charts, the additional approaches are only applicable and available to category A and category B aircraft, which would explain why your operator does not have them in its database and/or charts.

@TheFl4me

Unfortunately, I am not allowed to share documentation from my operator online.

Operator-specific references (e.g. those of a specific airline) are not sufficient and/or appropriate, as they (very often) omit approaches available to the general public (e.g. those only available to smaller, non-airline aircraft, as above) or the opposite, sometimes they include private approaches only available to specific operators but not the general public.

Without any additional data from the official Seychelles AIP, it would be foolish to assume Jeppesen just came up with and/or updated charts for non-existent approaches.

The Seychelles AIP data appears to be available for 25 dollars (without precision as to whether it comes in electronic or printed form), but I am not going invest my own money just to verify this, and while it’s their decision, I suspect it would not make good business sense for Navigraph to do so either, just to address one user’s report (especially since there is a high likeliness that the approaches do exist, since they are charted by Jeppesen).

AIP

Regards,

Tim

[TheFl4me]

Now this is very interesting indeed. I knew of the existence of the CAO format in Jeppesen, and that I was using it. I knew that it merged certain approaches into a single chart (most commonly all the ILS categories etc), I did not however know that it also completely filtered out certain procedures.

Thank you for this information, in that case, it would seem I was incorrect with my report.