Automatically EXCLUDE SIDs and STARs?

[FLIGHTCREW500]

Hi,

Every time I create a flight plan, it automatically includes a SID and STAR based on the current weather.

Including the first and last WPT that accommodates a SID and STAR is fine, but how do I stop an actual SID and STAR from being automatically added to the route planning (because I currently have to go in and manually delete them from the route every time)?

Regards and thanks, John.

[FLIGHTCREW500]

… is anybody able to assist please with this query? Thanks, John.

[FLIGHTCREW500]

Thanks Jason, however can you please modify Sim Brief so that this becomes a user-option. SIDs and STARs should NEVER be included within the generated or published flight plan. Doing so, causes issues when the flight plan is uploaded into the MCDU / FMS.

A SID and STAR should only be entered via the MCDU / FMS after being issued by ATC, and should not be part of the initial flight plan. This is not only correct in terms of realism, but as I’ve mentioned earlier, it creates in-flight flight-plan issues if they were part of the originally uploaded flight-plan, rather than being added later in-aircraft (MCDU / FMS) at the correct pre-flight stage.

[dougsnow]

I will attempt to file a SID/STAR for every flight in the real world and incredibly rarely are my flights ever given a PDC change because of the SID/STAR. Here in the US, ATC will expect a SID/STAR unless you file NO SID/STAR in the remarks section of the ATC FPL. Yes, I know some foreign operators, when operating into the US, will file a DCT from the beginning of the STAR procedure, but they will at least add gas to account for the mileage along the SID/STAR. US operators won’t; we’ll file the procedure. It allows for better fuel planning, better enroute flight time planning, and it allows for the crew to not be surprised.

A long time ago, Eurocontrol would reject an ATC FPL if you filed a SID/STAR; they won’t now. If I am coming off of EGSS, planning for the UTAVA SID for my Transatlantic flight, with the forecast EGSS winds of 240/20, it’s not a stretch of the imagination to plan for a runway 22 departure, and plan and file for the UTAVA1R.

When the FPL gets uplinked from our flight planning system into the FMS, it is a true statement that the SID/STAR isn’t uplinked from FPS; that is an ARINC633 standard - the crew loads it from the DEP/ARR Index in the box. Here is what an FPS to FMC uplink actually looks like. The end of the filed SID (the GOETZ) is at DIYAB, and beginning of the filed STAR is at BEDEK, but the ATC filing will include the SID and the transition, and the full STAR and transition from BEDEK (in this case from a long time ago) to the planned runway.

QU NQAASXX
.DPCXRXX 061424
M99
FI XXX    /AN NXXXXX
-  /UPLINK /UID FFPSAOC  /FTX
FPN/RI:DA:KMEM:AA:EGSS:F:DIYAB,N35146W089067..BWG,N36557W086266..FLM,N
38390W084186..AIR,N40010W080490..PSB,N40550W077596..MIP,N41014W076399.
.LVZ,N41164W075414..HUO,N41246W074355..IGN,N41399W073493..PUT,N41573W0
71506.J42..BOS,N42214W070594.J575..YQI,N43495W066049..PORTI,N46300W052
000..N47000W050000..N50000W040000..N52000W030000..N52000W020000..LIMRI
,N52000W015000..XETBO,N52000W014000..EVRIN,N51469W006338.UL607..NUMPO,
N51366W003170.Y3..BEDEK,N51223W001335CB20

There are individual countries however, that will reject an FPL with a SID/STAR, but we will still plan one for better fuel planning, and our NavLog will identify it, and show all of the fixes along it to my planned runway.

[SimBrief]

Just to add to Doug’s post, SimBrief works the same way as in the real world for the most part. The calculated OFP is planned with the most likely SID/STAR so that the fuel calculation is as accurate as possible. Almost all real-world airlines, dispatchers, and flight planning systems include a SID/STAR in their OFPs as far as I know.

However, when SimBrief uplinks or exports your latest flight into a variety of third-party add-ons and simulators (Fenix A320, PMDG, etc), the SID/STAR is not imported. Just like in the real world, the pilots need to manually select it from the FMS afterwards.

Also, when prefiling on an online network such as VATSIM or IVAO, SimBrief omits the SID/STAR from the route as needed depending on the country. In North America the SID/STAR is normally kept, while at many European airports it is automatically removed for example.

With all that said, removing the SID/STAR from your OFP is still easy enough to do by simply editing the route text option before generating. I don’t know if or when an option to do this by default will be added as there is not much demand for it.

Best regards,

[FLIGHTCREW500]

Hi gentlemen,

My apologies if I have the wrong information - however I find these responses a little confusing.

Australian AIP specifically states that routes must start and end with DCT (no SIDs/STARs in FPL) - see attached excerpt below.

One of the issues that might be encountered here (among many) is where the STAR transition includes WPTs prior to the last enroute WPT, it will omit them from the FPL uplink There’s a couple in Adelaide (YPAD) that do that where your FPL RTE ends at DRINA but the star for the RNP X-RAY arrival onto Runway 05 includes a transition that is prior to DRENA and must be deleted out of the route if it’s loaded.

Additionally, my airline colleague advises me that when they are departing the United States out of San Francisco or Los Angeles, they are specifically told not to load a SID or STAR. Because when they request a PRE-DEPARTURE CLEARANCE VIA DCL it would uplink the cleared SID to the FMS for execution.

The primary issue here is the Australian AIP, and the fact that SIDs and STARs are addendum clearances to the planned route, and often there are multiple alternatives, so they should not be planned - as they are ultimately at ATC discretion. A good example of this is departing Sydney (YSSY), where the SID options could be: MARUB7.WOL, GROOK1.WOL, KADOM1.WOL, or SYDNEY3.

I do acknowledge your comments, however equally, I feel the default should be that they’re excluded from the FPL, and a SimBrief user option only, if inclusion is required at the planning stage.

With best regards, John.

[SimBrief]

Hi, to explain this better, it is helpful to consider that there are 3 separate phases of the flight that are handled very differently when it comes to SID/STAR planning:

1. Dispatching phase: When the flight plan is being created, and the OFP paperwork is generated with the fuel calculations, time estimates, planned route, etc. This is the phase you are in when you are creating your flight in SimBrief and generating your OFP. Almost all real-world airlines plan a SID and STAR in this phase, based on their best guess of which one(s) ATC will assign to the actual flight, since it provides a more accurate fuel/time calculation.
2. Filing phase: When your dispatcher sends the flight plan and route to ATC. Depending on the country (such as Austria and Australia in your examples), it might be required to not include a SID/STAR in the route. Your dispatcher will remove any SID/STAR from the route as required before sending it to ATC, but this is done in the background and normally not seen by the pilots. The OFP document that the pilots use will still show a SID/STAR, regardless of the country’s requirements. The OFP document is for internal use only so this is 100% legal. SimBrief simulates this aspect by excluding the SID/STAR as required when submitting your flight plan to online networks such as VATSIM/IVAO.
3. Cockpit phase: When programming the FMS prior to flight, pilots might not enter the SID/STAR into the FMS until they receive their clearance. So they will simply ignore the ones on the OFP. Automatic uplink features which download the route into the FMS will normally not include the SID/STAR. SimBrief already simulates this when importing routes into many third-party addons such as PMDG and Fenix.

So in summary, the OFP that SimBrief creates is an internal company document. Therefore it is not affected by any regulations requiring SID/STARs to be excluded. Instead, the background systems will remove the SID/STAR as required before communicating the route to ATC. And pilots may have their own procedures to not enter the SID/STAR when programming the FMS until they actually receive their ATC clearance. But their OFP paperwork will still include a SID/STAR for fuel planning purposes.

This is 100% realistic, in fact removing the SID/STARs from the OFP as you are requesting would be less realistic. Hope that makes sense!

Cheers,