It is not about World Updates, it is not about missing tags at PLN files!!!
It is about bad programming (bugs) at Navigraph. How can such excellent products to cohabit with a recurrent issue?
Navigraph interlocutors here, make us to lose time with uninstalls, reinstalls, to look n times to our PLN Files , use LNM, and so on, when the issue is at its code.
The proof? Remove all Navigraph folders and you will have again your PLN running:
The workaround is known, but it is time to Navigraph ask for external support for solving this issue… once they cannot discover the bug in house.
Hi,
sorry, thats not true - it’s a confirmed bug in MSFS which should be fixed with SU15.
Cheers
Richard
No Richard , it is true.
I wrote my comment because I see you systematically blame other for this recurrent issue.
1)I had again the North Pole issue yesterday
2) I had all Updates of MSFS installed several days before, and things were running well with my PLN files
3) no update was done the day the issue reappeared
4) the first time I has this issue, I updated Navigraoh Charts, as suggested by other contributors, and the problem was solved
5) this time, the North Pole issue appeared after using Navigraoh Hub to update what was not yet done
6) to confirm that was a Navigraph problem, I removed the Navigraph folders from the Community f. and Voilá, my PLN files, even the old ones were working again without North Pole WPS.
How I solved the issue? With the Navigraph folders removed, I used the Navigraph Hub to install (not updates anymore) the Navigraph items
So, just to finish this sterile conversation, I ask you to answer a single question
Question: Why, after removing Navigraph folders from Community folders, all PLN files work correctly?
What other conclusion can someone get of this? None
Have you read one of the reference postings? When not, here again - directly from the MSFS dev support forum. Sylvain is a ASOBO employee and the responsible person for this issue …
The green line is the workaround, what Navigraph, LNM, and other flightplaning tools use which solves the North Pole issue.
The red lines are the description of the root-cause of this AND that ASOBO had logged a bug for this.
We can´t do more, than what we do - to “solve” a bug with a workaround. The bug itself can only be fixed by ASOBO and when it´s done, we (and LNM, …) don´t need the workaround any longer.
Cheers,
Richard
If you did not see my question above, I put it again by the last time.
No answer is a confirmation that is a Navigraph issue.
Fixed by ASOBO with the upcoming SU15.
Thank you very much,
Richard
Your (no) answer clarified everything
Thks Richard
I’d like to answer your question despite your tone, since I really do believe that you have not understood the issue and I want to help you understand. Let’s make the world a better place with less hate! Perhaps I am completely misreading you and your tone was neutral, and perhaps you already did understand - if that is the case, I apologise. Feel free to ignore the rest of this!
There could be many reasons why the issue is more apparent when Navigraph data is installed. To understand why, let’s take a look at what Sylvain (An Asobo employee) wrote in this post:
The root cause is an issue with how the waypoints are processed when BGL contains (probably ends up with) elements with the onlyAddIfReplace attribute set to true.
I have logged a bug for this.The problem occurs when these are processed last so it would be interesting to check if such elements are defined at the end of your BGL files and if moving them at the beginning of the file solves the problem.
This means that even if our data is perfectly aligned with their specification, which it is, this bug that they are explicitly mentioning as their responsibility can cause issues due to a slight difference in internal order between the two datasets.
Let’s simplify this scenario to make it perhaps slightly easier to understand (admittedly, even for me). Let’s say that we have to create an image based on a specification. The specification in question is simple: The image needs to contain a combination of red and blue squares! We come up with this image:
We submit our result, and it is accepted! However, someone else submits this image:
It is not accepted. But why? It contains one red square and one blue square, just like the first one!
It turns out that the program that was written to validate each submission did not account for this particular square order. “That should not matter at all!”, you may think. Both images fulfil the specifications! And you would be right! The creator of the program fixes this issue, and now both images are valid.
This, while being a huge simplification, is exactly what has happened here to my understanding, just replace the “combination of red and blue squares” with navigation data in the shape of BGL files. You are claiming that Navigraph is at fault - would you also claim that the second pair of squares does not match the specification?
I hope that this clears things up a little! I did my best to explain this based on my understanding. Also, please don’t take my simplification as belittling in any way - it really was the best way that I could find to explain it in simple terms!
This issue should be fixed in the next sim update if everything goes according to Asobo’s plans, as reported in the linked topic.
Kind Regards,
Malte
Thanks by your explanation that deserves some comments
My tone is not of hate, but someone that was a former CIO at big companies and who did not accept that recurring issues were present at the more of a dozen applications we had in house. My last company was a Water Utility that had besides the core business (supply water to several cities), a Business Area that was selling Billing and CRM to other Water Companies, some of them outside my country. So, I had internal and external customers that made me invest a lot at CRM, that you must know what it is.
What bothers me is seeing other customers like me, struggling to get the PLN files loading correctly at the MSFS2020. Uninstal, Install SU, uninstall and install the MSFS 2020 again, and so on. And this bothers a lot because who is misleading us are your persons. I could get all the things you (Richard mainly) has written about this theme, If you want I will transcript the messages (with me also) where he was saying that the PLN were incorrectly formatted which is not true, as I explained a lot of times (without Navigraph folders, files load correctly).
Ok, you say that is an apparent relationship, which seems quite strange because the correlation is 100% (my background is Macro Economics where Statistics and Econometrics were learnt). No Navigraph, No Issues!!! With Navigraph installed, the issue appears).
Sylvain is talking about BGL files and we talk about PLN files, so at first sight we are not talking about the same thing. Of course, I don’t the data model and the workflow of MSFS2020!
It was a nice exercise the two squares, but I am smart enough to understand, that in BGL files, I repeat, in BGL files, there is a bug with a order of elements at a function somewhere at code!
What I cannot see yet which is the connection between the PLN files and the BGL files!!! MSFS2020 just need to read an external XML file and build the “objects” from there (I am a hobbyst programmer in C#, so I know what I am talking about). Period! I cannot imagine this is an issue for Asobo. This is basic programming!!!
Note - after writing the above text, I went to search the context of the answer of Sylvain, and IMAGINE, this an answer to a question that Richard put at 31 Jan 2024, where he was saying that was one problem with a missing tag (false as Sylvain said)!!!
Do you realize what this means? A known issue from months or years, associated correct or incorrectly, to Navigraph, is finally addressed to Asobo in 2024
This only confirms about what was bothering me, that was the systematic misleading by you (I saw always Richard answering) about this issue! I was also a victim of this, if you go to my first complaint at MSDeveloper Forum
It is not yet clear for me the relationship between PLN files and BGL, so I have no arguments to contradict what you and Asobo are
Thks for your answer in spite of you confunding hate with exigence and customer oriented practices.
Best Regards
Luis
Hi Luis,
We have explained what we believe to be the issue, with a planned fix in MSFS SU15. It has been fixed by ASOBO as per links below.
You disagree. We note that.
We don’t feel there is any use in trying to prove Navigraph or Navigraph staff wrong. Let’s wait till SU15 and confirm the solution. Alternately, if you want a positive confirmation now that it is a sim issue now fixed by ASOBO, you can join their beta.
Otherwise, I suggest we step away from this until the released SU15 confirms it is resolved.
Cheers
Ian
Links:
Bug-Report with the bug confirmation from ASOBO in the MSFS dev forum:
Missing tag in PLN file -> called "North-Pole issue" - #4 by FlyingRaccoon - Aircraft - MSFS DevSupport
Report in the MSFS-forum:
North Pole waypoints back w/ WU16 - Aircraft & Systems - Microsoft Flight Simulator Forums
Release notes Sim Update 15 beta - v1.37.4.0 from Feb 22th:
Sim Update 15 Beta Release Notes 1.37.4.0 - February 22, 2024 - Beta News - Microsoft Flight Simulator Forums
I see my English is quite poor.
I said at the last paragrapfh that I could not contradict you, which means that I give you the “benefit of the doubt”, and possibly is (was) a Asobo bug
My final emphasis at my last post was you, Navigraph, misleading us with incorrect allegations about "missing tags’ which is not the case, as Sylvain said
And above all, to understanding that a old and recurrent issue has been only addressed at 31 January 2024. This is very poor CRM
At all theses posts exchange, I never saw the most slight attempt from Navigraph, to recognize you could be wrong when you were saying wrong things to all of us . I feel for all that wasted hours and hours with this North Pole issue that is associated, correct or incorrectly, with Navigraph. Just google and you will confirm this association.
OK, I will wait for the SU15, but now I can live with the North Pole issue, that I leave here MY solution for all customwrs that suffers from this
- remove Navigraph folders from Community folder
- use Navigraph Hub to install all items visible.
For me, this results
Best Regards
Luis
Ok we are all agreed to wait for the SU15 release.
We can revisit then.
This topic is closed.