Waypoints Not Working Correctly in FAA Low IFR Charts

[markjpeterson]

There seems to be an issue where waypoints are not selectable correctly in the low FAA charts.

Here are steps to reproduce the issue:

1. In screenshot 1 of the FAA Low Chart SUNNS shows as a coordinates only waypoint.

2. When selected as shown in screenshot 2, it shows as a coordinates reference in the flight plan, the RNAV waypoint cannot be selected.

3. When going to the Non FAA Low Chart, the RNAV waypoint is visible as well as a coordinates based one per screenshot 3.

4. As shown in screenshot 4, this can be selected and entered into the flight plan with its correct RNAV name, not as a coordinate entry.

This is causing flight planning to have to be done in the non FAA Low Charts. From what I can tell both waypoints show in the FAA VFR Chart.

[GordonNG]

Thanks for the report, we’re investigating.

[GordonNG]

So after looking a bit deeper, it looks to be an issue on the FAA’s side. The FAA database contains the correct coordinate for SUNNS as we offer in our data/charts.

If you look for SUNNS on SkyVector, you’ll see the exact same position on their charts as in our charts.

Unfortunately it looks like either the underlaying FAA charts are not correct or the FAA data is not correct.

We will discuss internally and decide the best path forward in order to correct this.

[markjpeterson]

Thanks, a few more interesting data points.

1. As can be seen in screenshots 5 and 6 attached, the FAA VFR Sectionals do contain both types of waypoint, as shown here for SUNNS.

2. The FAA IFR High charts just contain the RNAV waypoint. They don’t offer the coordinates based one. Screenshot 7 shows this for SUNNS.

3. There are waypoints with no ability to select at all on the IFR Low charts, see screenshot 8.

[NAVData]

Hi again,
As described before, the FAA offers only one SUNNS waypoint with the exact same coordinates as in our database and as shown on the charts.

When you try to search for this waypoint in SkyVector, you will see that it is at the exact (wrong or correct location, I can’t verify it) location as on our charts.

Also, I have looked directly in the FAA database and here; same coordinates. What you see is what the FAA offers, also on the charts.

So, we can’t see any issue in the charts. We view what we get from the FAA - charts and data.

Thank you
Richard

[markjpeterson]

I guess my confusion per my second reply is that both Waypoints, coordinate based and full RNAV with details show in the FAA VFR sectionals, so that FAA chart sees the data for both, plus the FAA High chart shows the RNAV waypoint so clearly the data is there for that chart too, it’s an issue specifically for the FAA IFR low charts.

As my second reply also showed the FAA IFR low charts also have a bunch of waypoints the chart shows but are not selectable at all.

This effectively makes the IFR low charts of little use. You have to go back to the non FAA IFR low charts to plan. Interestingly when you do this and then switch to the FAA IFR low chart, you can see and select the RNAV waypoint on the IFR low chart. It has now become available.

All of this just makes me feel something else may be in play with this issue.

[Rodeo314]

This seems to be rather complex, as far as I can tell. I limited my investigation to Navigraph Charts and Navigraph-provided databases, as it’s plenty complex enough without adding additional variables.

In most Navigraph databases (e.g. X-Plane 12 native format), there is only one instance of SUNNS in region K7 (and another in RJ).

Irrespective of which map layers I select, I do get two (adjacent) instances of SUNNS in K7 in Navigraph Charts when using waypoint search:

The coordinates are identical in Degrees-Minutes-Seconds format but the placement of the purple icon on the map varies ever so slightly when selecting one or the other, not sure why.

The map layer has no effect on availability of both SUNNS in search, but the layer does seem to affect selectability of the waypoint on the map using the mouse pointer, as well as whether the waypoint is depicted at all.

Some layers depict the “fix” variant, some depict the “vor intersection” variant, and some depict neither; when depicted, selecting SUNNS with the mouse pointer brings a different variant of the waypoint depending on the layer (and which variant comes up does not necessarily match the depiction on the map).

Nothing depicted, nothing selectable (in Navigraph Charts, I have not tested SkyVector or anything else):

• High IFR
• Satellite
• World Map
• FAA High IFR

Nothing selectable:

• FAA Low IFR (the “fix” variant appears to be depicted)

Top SUNNS (“fix” variant) both depicted and selectable (see data in lower-left corner panel, matches the top variant in above screenshot):

• Low IFR

Bottom SUNNS (“vor intersection” variant) both depicted and selectable (see data in lower-left corner panel, matches the bottom variant in above screenshot with the exception of the icon in the top-left corner of said panel):

• Rogers Europe
• Brazil VFR
• AED SEA
• AED ME
• FAA VFR
• Heli FAA

Bottom SUNNS (“vor intersection” variant) depicted, top SUNNS (“fix” variant) selectable:

• VFR

That’s 13 screenshots: sunns.zip (15.8 MB)

What seems most weird to me is the two instances; I will also record a video showing how the coordinates seem to vary (in that the cursor moves) between the two variants despite the coordinates matching when displayed in Degrees-Minutes-Seconds format.

Regards,

Tim

Edit:

[markjpeterson]

Building on your reply I went back to FAA IFR low where I am having the issue and did a search for SUNNS. As you note three waypoints show up, two being for the SUNNS waypoint in the US. I am able to then select the one with usage level RNAV and add to the route. It then shows in the flight plan at the top of the screen with the correct name. This is shown in screenshot 9.

If I then go back and try and to just add this waypoint via clicking in FAA IFR low, I can only select the coordinate based one, the VOR intersection type. See screenshot 10. This shows in the flightplan at the top of the screen as a coordinates waypoint, not what you want when it is a named waypoint.

Interestingly when I search and add the RNAV type, it appears to show as hidden under the VOR type, so this may be an issue of the selectable VOR waypoint type being displayed over the top of the RNAV type when the display is painted.

To me this at least shows all these are in the database Charts uses for FAA IFR low, you can search, find and use them when searched for by name. When you just try and select the RNAV type with the mouse, only the VOR type paints to the screen and is selectable.

There is also still the issue of a range of completely unelectable RNAV waypoints in FAA IFR Low, as shown in screenshot 8. These are again searchable and can be added when searched for, but are never selectable by just using the mouse.

[ErkkiNG]

Hi,

thanks for the detailed explanation. We just discussed it internally and could indeed find a bug on our end that caused the issue when selecting the waypoint in FAA IFR low.

We’ll update you as soon as we pushed the fix.

Have a great day!

Erik

[Rodeo314]

Thanks Erik. Any idea why there are two instances of SUNNS (in K7 region) in Charts, when there is only one SUNNS/K7 is all other Navigraph databases that I checked?

Regards,

Tim