Hi, I’ve been experiencing an ongoing issue with the ILS 07R at PANC. When selecting the line-selectable transition ELIAS on the PMDG 737 NG3, it instead inserts (ELIAS-4) with an altitude constraint of 3300 or below, 4.1 nmi before the next waypoint on the approach, WEWWO. ELIAS is located at 18.6 from the ANC DME, 6.2 miles further out than WEWWO (12.4 DME ANC). ELIAS is correctly inserted as part of the NEELL7 transition, so I think it’s just an issue with the approach.
Hi,
Thank you very much for your report …
I have looked into the I07R into PANC, and the “problem” is more the WEWWO waypoint because this waypoint has an altitude restriction between 3300 and 1600 feet which “overrules” the previous altitude restriction ELIAS above 2000 feet.
Here from the FAA charts:
The NEELL7 is a STAR and not an approach or an approach transition. So, the STAR does not “know” which approach you follow after; therefore, it must be coded as 2000 and above. But all rules are correct here. 2000 ft above is between 3000 and 1600 ft, so you are safe in every case, but you must remove the altitude restriction during the approach, yes.
Hope that helps
Richard
When I mentioned ELIAS as part of the NEELL7, the point I was trying to make is that it exists within the navdata, the approach is just incorrectly programmed
Sorry, I can´t see any coding issue here. The ELIAS-4 is the “step down fix” on the way to WEWWO. ELIAS-4 is 3300 and below, and WEWWO has 1600 above to catch the GS at TULLI. When you select the NEELL7 STAR, you must remove the discontinue, and you can fly the approach without any issue.
The red marker is the ELIAS-4 (defined as FC - track from a fix for a distance):
Look at the distances ELIAS → ELIAS-4 (4.0 NM) → WEWWO (2.2 NM) - in total the same distance as between ELIAS → WEWWO (6.3 NM).
Cheers,
Richard
The issue is not that the step down fix exists, it’s the fact that when the ELIAS transition is selected, the ELIAS waypoint is not inserted, only the step down fix. When using a STAR other than the NEELL7, like for instance the WITTI5, one manually has to add ELIAS.
It should go ELIAS, ELIAS-4, WEWWO, TULLI
For most other airports I’ve flown to, if the last waypoint on the arrival also serves as a transition for the approach, no discontinuity is inserted, like for instance at KHOU where the BELLR6 for runway 04 ends at GEEEO, which also serves as a transition for the ILS 04
It could be, I don´t know, but when this is the case, you should report this to PMDG because they are the responsible developers who code the paths correctly.
That´s what we have in our database and what we offer in the PMDG database:
The interpretation of these lines is part of PMDG. Again, from the data point of view, I can´t see any coding issue here.
Possibly, they coded the FC leg wrong. Here from the ARINC424 specification:
Cheers,
Richard
It may be a them issue, or it may be an issue with their system being able to interpret a waypoint being inserted in the data that is not published on the chart itself. I’m not disputing that the altitude constraint exists, but the only waypoints that are present on the chart itself are ELIAS, WEWWO, TULLI, and WIVDA (which also appears to be missing from the FMC and the table you posted above); what might be arguably better is to simply get rid of (ELIAS-4) altogether because nowhere on the chart does it specify that the 3300B altitude constraint must be complied with by 4 prior to WEWWO, only at WEWWO
I have shown you the Jeppesen charts to explain the ELIAS-4 fix. Jeppesen codes it this way, but this is not wrong according to the ARINC424 rules.
There are no restrictions on adding “between” waypoints for safety or possible smoother approach reasons.
Cheers,
Richard
The interpretation by PMDG should include WPT ELLIAS before ELIAS-4. This case should be reported.
But then the +2000 at ELIAS would still be missing in the ELIAS transition.
IF ELIAS + 2000
FC ELIAS 074 / 4 - 3300
would cover that. This would be something to check with Jeppesen.
Regards Jan-Paul