On route 150008756 (my latest) I get ETOPS not required for this route. I guess this is wrong but I might be mistaken.
Hi, it looks like the Hot Start CL60 airframe has the ETOPS threshold set to “120 minutes”. This means that ETOPS won’t kick in until 120 minutes from an adequate airport, as opposed to the usual 60 minutes for twin-engine airliners.
I think this is intentional due to the EU regulations for seating configs of 19 seats or less, as discussed in this forum topic: https://forums.x-pilot.com/forums/topic/23673-etops-certification/#elComment_177539
You can of course change the ETOPS threshold back to 60 minutes if you prefer to use that.
Best regards,
I can’t seem to find the reference right now, but IIRC aircraft with a passenger capacity of 19 or less have a threshold time as high as 180 minutes under FAA regulations. I picked 120 because it is the more limiting of the two.
Regards,
Tim
I asked chatgpt to tell me the difference between “threshold” and “target”. According to that and the forum post you mentioned this would mean that 120min (180min) depending on individual aircraft would be the maximum => threshold. The target should be the more conservative of the two. That would mean that I would set e.g. threshold to 120 and target to 90. This however always gives me “ETOPS not required” on that particular flightplan. Doing it the other way around setting threshold 90min and target 120min results in “Insufficient suitable airports for ETOPS-120. ETOPS scenario valid for ETOPS-180.” (target is automatically reset to 180min after the calculation). I guess that I misunderstand something here but it seemed strange to me that I can cross the pond on that route “50N070W 52N061W 54N052W 54N042W 54N032W 53N023W XETBO XETBO UNLID LULOX DOLUR OTOFE UN491 LGL UN859 SORAP BOBSA BOBS9E” on a twin engine without even having enroute alternates.
Rodeo314 is correct in saying that the CL650 has a EDTO of 180min.
In the referenced forum post they probably set a lower threshold too because otherwise using 120min they probably wouldn’t get the range ring calculation as well. Anyone able to shed some light so that my old brain can understand?
No, threshold is when EDTO becomes applicable. In an “airliner” (passenger capacity of 20 or more, 2 engines), when the entire flight is within 60 minutes of an suitable adequate alternate airport, the flight is not subject to EDTO at all. Once you are over 60 minutes from an suitable adequate diversion airport, then you are subject to EDTO; you must still remain within N minutes of a suitable alternate (where N is the “certification” time, like 180 minutes, 240 minutes, etc.).
For aircraft where the passenger capacity is 19 or less (and for aircraft with more than 2 engines), the threshold is higher, up to 120 or even 180 minutes. Thus if you are within 120/180 minutes of an suitable adequate diversion airport, you are not subject to EDTO either.
It should be noted the Challenger 650 is not ETOPS/EDTO certified, so your route must stay within 120/180 minutes of an suitable adequate alternate, or you simply cannot do the flight.
Regards,
Tim
(edited for clarify with more precise/specific terminology)
A discussion on the Hot Start Challenger Discord server did touch on the possibility that, in addition to the above, some other considerations (such as, for example, a particular aircraft’s insurance policy) may impose some requirements when flying 60 minutes or more from an suitable adequate alternate. What these specific requirements might be will depend on the actual policy.
Regards,
Tim
OK, so the threshold for airline OPS is 60min? And for OPS with smaller aircraft <19 seats the threshold is 120-180min depending on aircraft. According to the post in the other forum going above the 120min would be tedious work.
Can you explain why I get this when I enter e.g. threshold 90min, target 120min. I was just messing around trying to see some range rings.
After clicking validate I see => see image below. The 120min target gets replaced by 138min and I see the red warning. That indicates for me that all the aerodromes are more than 120min away at any given point or am I wrong there as well?
Yes, for aircraft with 2 engines.
Not sure exactly about that part, Derek can probably explain it better than I do.
I can get an ETOPS-120 scenario to validate by manually adding BGKK as an additional alternate, although the runway is awfully short there so I’m not sure it’s really suitable.
On another day, airports like BGBW might be available but the weather there is currently not good enough to plan it as an alternate.
Regards,
Tim
Tim is correct. Basically, you have asked to use 120 minute ETOPS. But your route does not entirely keep you within 120 minutes of a suitable alternate (either because there aren’t enough airports, or the weather at the airports is not legal today), so it bumps you up to the next highest scenario (138 minutes in this case).
Best regards,
Which would mean that I wouldn’t be able to fly this route with 120min EDTO in this particular scenario. As the CL650 is certified according EASA for 180min that I guess would make it possible.
Extended Diversion Time Operations (EDTO)
The aircraft model CL-600-2B16 (604 Variant) has been demonstrated to be
compliant with the design requirements for “180 minutes Extended Diversion
Time Operation (EDTO) from an adequate aerodrome for two engine aeroplanes
without an ETOPS approval”, as per EASA Air-Ops CAT.OP.MPA.140 (a)(2) and
(d) (Commission Regulation EU No. 965/2012).
Operational approval must be sought from the State of Registry of each
individual aircraft
Last point I would like to clarify is why do I get “ETOPS not required for this route!” when I use threshold 120min and target AUTO vs. when I use threshold 90min and target 120min bumped to 138 => “Insufficient suitable airports for ETOPS-120.” Isn’t this contradicting each other?
It’s a bit complicated to explain how it works:
First, there are 2 types of airports we need to define:
- Adequate Airports: Are airports along your route that can handle your aircraft (long enough runway, equipment/services that can handle your aircraft, etc). The weather at these airports does not matter.
- Suitable Airports: Are adequate airports, that also have a weather forecast that is above ETOPS alternate minimums.
If you remain within the threshold time (120 minutes for example) of at least 1 adequate airport at all points along your route, you do not enter ETOPS at all. SimBrief will return “ETOPS not required for this route”. It doesn’t matter what the weather forecast is at these airports. Even if every airport on the planet is fogged in, you still will not require ETOPS.
Now, if you reduce the threshold time to 90 minutes, this means you need to stay closer to the adequate airports to avoid becoming ETOPS. The route you have chosen might not require ETOPS at a 120 minute threshold, but it does require ETOPS when a 90 minute threshold is used.
Now that we are officially ETOPS, the rules change a bit. Now we need to find suitable airports, with legal weather, to use as ETOPS alternates. If every airport on the planet had good weather, then yes, ETOPS-120 would have certainly worked, since we already know there are airports within 120 minutes at all points along your route (due to 120 minute threshold returning “ETOPS not required”).
Often however, at least some of the airports do not have legal weather, and therefore don’t qualify as suitable airports. If you remove enough suitable airports from the pool, you might reach a point in your route where you are not within 120 minutes of a suitable diversion airport. It is at this point, that SimBrief will return the “Insufficient suitable airports for ETOPS-120” error, and will begin looking for legal airports at the next highest ETOPS rule (138 minutes in this case).
In summary, for a given route, the “ETOPS Threshold” setting will always give the same result, regardless of weather. But the “ETOPS Scenario” might return different results from one day to another, depending on which airports have good or bad weather. There are days that ETOPS-120 will certainly work for this route, if the weather is nice enough, but on days where there is bad weather, you might need to use a higher rule like ETOPS-138 or ETOPS-180.
Hope this helps,
Thanks Derek, I edited my previous post following your clarification 
Regards,
Tim
Thank you very much Derek and Tim, really appreciated