# EDTO and more than 2 engines: threshold time **URL:** \ **Category:** Dispatch\ **Created:** [October 23, 2024, 4:54pm UTC](https://forum.navigraph.com/t/edto-and-more-than-2-engines-threshold-time/17276 "2024-10-23T16:54:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rodeo314](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forum.navigraph.com/rodeo314/32/103_2.png) [@Rodeo314](https://forum.navigraph.com/u/Rodeo314)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 4:54pm UTC](https://forum.navigraph.com/t/edto-and-more-than-2-engines-threshold-time/17276/1 "2024-10-23T16:54:10Z")
In recent years, the scope of ETOPS/EDTO has been widened to include aircraft with more than 2 engines. But as far as I can tell, the threshold time which applies is rather different depending on the engine count. This was discussed here: > [@ETOPS/EDTO Threshold](https://forum.navigraph.com/t/etops-edto-threshold/13724/5): > > Just as a follow-up, we have now released version 2.19.0 which includes an ETOPS threshold option: Best regards, And the option to set a threshold time was added; however, the default threshold time of 60 minutes is still used for all default airframes, as far as I can tell? Looking at that message from dougsnow: > [@ETOPS/EDTO Threshold](https://forum.navigraph.com/t/etops-edto-threshold/13724/4): > > Actually, for US operators, tri-jets comply with ETP planning when more than 90-minutes away from an adequate, and the speed schedule is Dual E/O and nothing else. For US Trijet operators, they only need to comply with ETOPS/EDTO planning when when beyond 90 minutes if they are an all-passenger operation (and there are none of those anymore). For all-cargo quads, I believe their OFP provides both a Single E/O and a Dual E/O ETP when beyond 90 minutes. US all-pax quad operators had to comply wit… It might make sense to set the threshold time to 90 minutes for 3-engine default airframes and 180 minutes for 4+ engined default airframes? There’s also [NPA 2023-03 - Extended diversion time operations (EDTO) | EASA](https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/document-library/notices-of-proposed-amendment/npa-2023-03) …which seemingly recommends a 180-minute threshold time for all aircraft with more than 2 engines. Regards, Tim ---
**Author:** ![SimBrief](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forum.navigraph.com/simbrief/32/4850_2.png) [@SimBrief](https://forum.navigraph.com/u/SimBrief)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 8:41pm UTC](https://forum.navigraph.com/t/edto-and-more-than-2-engines-threshold-time/17276/2 "2024-10-23T20:41:02Z")
Hi Tim, I have updated the default threshold time to 180 minutes for 3 and 4-engined aircraft. Best regards, ---
**Author:** ![dougsnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@dougsnow](https://forum.navigraph.com/u/dougsnow)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 8:49pm UTC](https://forum.navigraph.com/t/edto-and-more-than-2-engines-threshold-time/17276/3 "2024-10-23T20:49:49Z")
The US reg, for 3-4 engine aircraft, does not require the aircraft be operated under 3/4 engine if it is all-cargo. Pax 3-4 engine aircraft operated under a US cert, are still required to comply with 3/4 engine ETOPS if operated at greater than 180 minutes from an adequate. There is an OpSpec for 3/4 Engine ETOPS that maybe one operator holds. When the pax 121 still operated their 747s (DL and UA), they kept them at less than 180 to not have to comply with the additional requirements. 90 minutes had been fine since the inception of the program, no real justification to change it. A certain US brown 747 all-cargo operator will provide both a 1X (single E/O) and a 2X (dual E/O) ETP for their 747s when beyond 90 minutes. The airports forming their ETP are not alternates, just adequates, and I think they may only require charted mins - since these airports are not alternates. ---
**Author:** ![Rodeo314](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forum.navigraph.com/rodeo314/32/103_2.png) [@Rodeo314](https://forum.navigraph.com/u/Rodeo314)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2024, 9:23pm UTC](https://forum.navigraph.com/t/edto-and-more-than-2-engines-threshold-time/17276/4 "2024-10-23T21:23:55Z")
Another thing I noticed in that document is: > Point CAT.OP.MPA.140 of the Air OPS Regulation sets the ETOPS threshold time for two-engined aeroplanes at 60 minutes flight time from an en-route alternate, except for two-engined aeroplanes with a maximum operational passenger seating configuration (MOPSC) of 19 or less, _ **for which the threshold time is set to 180 minutes** _ . For these aeroplanes, some specific criteria are established for operations with a diversion time beyond 120 minutes and up to 180 minutes, including an operational approval. However, there is currently no specific criterion for operations of these aeroplanes with a diversion time beyond 60 minutes. That seems to be an EASA thing though, not sure what the FAA and other regulations and if there’s anything about aircraft with 19 seats or less though. Regards, Tim ---
**Author:** ![dougsnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@dougsnow](https://forum.navigraph.com/u/dougsnow)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 2:50am UTC](https://forum.navigraph.com/t/edto-and-more-than-2-engines-threshold-time/17276/5 "2024-10-24T02:50:15Z")
19 seats is for a KingAir, not a 777F, nor an MD11/B747-4/-8. It’s the type of operation in the operator’s OpSpecs; you are either All-Cargo, or Passenger (at least in the 121 world anyway, flag or supplemental doesn’t change it), and a KingAir would not be Type Certified for ETOPS anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Rodeo314](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forum.navigraph.com/rodeo314/32/103_2.png) [@Rodeo314](https://forum.navigraph.com/u/Rodeo314)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 6:19am UTC](https://forum.navigraph.com/t/edto-and-more-than-2-engines-threshold-time/17276/6 "2024-10-24T06:19:31Z")
> [@dougsnow](#): > > 19 seats is for a KingAir Or a Gulfstream, or a Global, or a Falcon, or even a Challenger 600 series or maybe a Praetor which do occasionally fly over the atlantic. My second question was more aimed at this type of aircraft. Regards, Tim ---
**Author:** ![dougsnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@dougsnow](https://forum.navigraph.com/u/dougsnow)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 6:31am UTC](https://forum.navigraph.com/t/edto-and-more-than-2-engines-threshold-time/17276/7 "2024-10-24T06:31:07Z")
But those aircraft are not subject to a 121 operating rule, which ETOPS is. ---
**Author:** ![Rodeo314](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/user_avatar/forum.navigraph.com/rodeo314/32/103_2.png) [@Rodeo314](https://forum.navigraph.com/u/Rodeo314)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2024, 7:19am UTC](https://forum.navigraph.com/t/edto-and-more-than-2-engines-threshold-time/17276/8 "2024-10-24T07:19:08Z")
What about part 135? I found [14 CFR Appendix G to Part 135 - Appendix G to Part 135—Extended Operations (ETOPS) | Electronic Code of Federal Regulations (e-CFR) | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/appendix-G_to_part_135) Which suggests some form of ETOPs requirements do apply to such aircraft if/when operated under part 135. What I’m really trying to determine is what the threshold time would be for them and if the fact that they are limited to 19 passengers or less gives them more than 60 minutes like it seemingly does in Europe. Regards, Tim ---
**Author:** ![system](https://europe1.discourse-cdn.com/flex013/uploads/navigraph1/original/1X/4cc83e90d70ab312b1bd2d7527bddad309607265.png) [@system](https://forum.navigraph.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2024, 7:19am UTC](https://forum.navigraph.com/t/edto-and-more-than-2-engines-threshold-time/17276/9 "2024-10-31T07:19:11Z")
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